Surviving Trafficking Rings and Fighting Cover-ups
A Two Part Conversation with Alisha Owen of Epstein Justice
SEASON 1 | EPISODE 46 & 47
After speaking with Nick Bryant about trafficking networks among high-profile people, I knew I needed to know more. In this first part of my conversation with Alisha Owens, it became clear that this really can happen to anyone.
Alisha began her journey as a whistleblower and advocate for victims of human trafficking and sexual abuse when she was 19 years old. Now, as the Associate Director of Epstein Justice, she continues to advocate for trafficking victims, and educate the public on the realities of human trafficking and sexual abuse.
Tune in to find out how this case relates to Epstein's little black book, and what we can do to prevent trafficking in our own communities.
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Being Different with Liz Durham is a Palm Tree Pod Co. production
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Liz 0:00
All right, everyone, welcome to another episode of being different. Today I am joined by Alicia Owen. And how I know Alicia is through Nick Bryant. I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago. And he is the guy who broke the story, actually not broke the story. He is the one who uploaded the little black book from Jeffrey Epstein to the internet. Okay, so let's pick up right where you started talking for the first time.
Alisha Owen 0:31
Well, thank you, Liz, it is a, it's been a pleasure to get to know you and meet you know, and I appreciate you
taking the time and allowing me to share my story with you and your guests.
Liz 0:46
Yeah, I'm glad you're doing this. I can't imagine that it's easy to do this. And so I appreciate that you have the bravery to do it, and that you're willing to do it, because I know that it probably can help a lot of people. So let's jump right into it. Um, what was your childhood? Like? Like? What was your home life? Like? What was it like?
Alisha Owen 1:11
I, I had an amazing childhood, I really did. Um, I grew up in a household that, you know, I had a mom, I had a dad, I had, my mom helped with my dad's business. So even though she worked for the family company, she was also a stay at home mom, I had one sister and two brothers. My parents and they called them salt of the earth people. And they really are they are you're, in some ways, not so typical. But in many ways, you know, just stay a middle class, normal home. My parents are Christians, and they just when it was time for their kids, you know us to go to school, they really weren't happy with the, with the school choices. So my parents with other parents decided that they would just start their own school. And that school is still like 50 years later still in existence. It's one of the the best, private, parochial schools in Nebraska, and actually in the nation. Cool. And I so I would say, in a lot of ways, it maybe wasn't so typical, in that it was, it was really good. I mean, it was a lot of people. My parents became youth group leaders at our church. And there are still people that were in their youth group that really looked up to my parents and think it was a good upbringing, but it really was almost idyllic.
Liz 3:17
The reason why I asked you that is because I feel like, and maybe this is just me, but I feel like a lot of people when they hear about these pedophile trafficking rings and stuff like that, they assume that it's mainly marginalized children that have fallen through the cracks and stuff like that. And so when I talk to you, and you told me that you had a very, like, normal, good, healthy upbringing, that was kind of surprising to me. It doesn't sound like you fell through the cracks in any way or that your parents were like being negligent or anything like that.
Alisha Owen 3:49
Yeah. And I think that is important that people understand that because a lot of times they think that kids that this happens to are kids that are sucked into these things are you know, their parents weren't around their parents didn't care about them. They were poor. Kind of the wrong side of the you know, and actually in the media. My family and I were kind of portrait portrayed is that would that wasn't the case at all. I mean, I went to a private school. And also like when we talk about with Epstein, not all of them Steen victims were quote unquote throwaway kids so it really can happen in your town and to people that you know, even though you think that you're you're sheltered or insulated, it really does affect everyone. And I think it's important to know that this really can happen to anyone.
Liz 4:59
Yeah, So how did you get sucked into all of this?
Alisha Owen 5:04
Well, um, I was to say that I was headstrong or willful, is probably an understatement. I just kind of have a voice. Alicia is going to do what Alicia is going to do. And often to my detriment. I met some guys. And a few of them were associated with Boystown, and I met them at a, oh, it was an outdoor, like teen dance kind of thing. And they invited to me, they invited me to a party. I think it was like, the next night or the next couple nights. And I thought, well, that sounded like a lot of fun. Now, I knew that my parents, they would not have approved of me going to a party with strangers that they didn't know with guys that they didn't know. And so I basically did a fairly what I think maybe I know a lot of teenagers have done, I lied, and said I was going to do something else. And I went and did my own thing. And you know, the thing about people tend to think that pedophiles or these kind of predators do you know, they don't just jump out of the bushes and kidnap you. It's kind of a, you know, lure you in. And by the time you realize what's really going on, it is way too late to get out of it. And that basically happened with me and the same thing. We know that Epstein did the same thing. And that's what a lot of these rings do. They they snare kids in and then they use them to, you know, the people that they've snared in, they use them to recruit more, because I mean, it's like a never ending monster. They just more more and more. And by the time you realize and I mean, I was I was a naive 15 year old. By the time you realize what's really going on, it is way too late to get out of
Liz 7:28
when you say snare Are you alluding to like inviting kids to parties and getting him to drink and do drugs and stuff like that? Or is it more like, absolutely. And playing games with you?
Alisha Owen 7:41
Absolutely. It's it's mind games. And one of the biggest reasons why I decided that I had to start telling my stories. I one morning, I think I was watching. I don't know if it was the Today Show or Good Morning America. But one of the hosts had a, an Epstein victim on there. And it was a gal from New York. And she talked about how a girl invited her to, hey, if you skip class, you can come with me. And all you got to do is give this guy a massage. And you know, he'll give you like 100 200 bucks. And I mean, this girl, I know that she talked about her mother and her brother. And then in order to even be able to do this, she had to skip school because her family also kept close tabs on her. And then after she had skipped school a couple of times. And when she told Maxwell, I don't want to do this. This isn't a massage. I didn't want to do this. She basically was blackmailed. I mean, you know, well, then we're fine. We're going to we're going to tell your folks in your family in your school that you skipped school and that you were out doing this. So I mean, it really is when I when you said mind games, it really is especially with me, you're talking 14 1516 year old kids that just don't have the wherewithal to play those kinds of games.
Liz 9:25
And so, I guess Yeah, I have the misconception that I'm you know, like you see those car fools of kids that people have driven across the border and they're all gagged and skinny and dirty and it doesn't really seem like it's that way at all. It seems like these manipulative people get these teenagers or kids or whatever. And then they say we're going to expose what you've done unless you go get other kids is that kind of what you experience like how they would be able to get another kid to force another kid to be? Yeah, manager
Alisha Owen 9:58
or they would have And, you know, people also don't understand a lot of these kids, they become addicted. And
Liz 10:12
to like the drugs and the lifestyle,
Alisha Owen 10:15
the drugs the lifestyle for. For some, it's the drugs the lifestyle. For some, it is the
the quote unquote, kind of, you know, kiddie blackmail. And then you also can't leave out just the plain out and out threat. Yeah, if you don't do this, you know, it isn't hard for you to disappear.
Liz 10:48
And that did happen. So yeah, kids knew that it like actually was not a WMD threat or could but
Alisha Owen 10:55
no, it wasn't, it was not an empty threat. It was not an empty threat. And it's one of those things where you don't necessarily need to have physical injury, you don't need to get beat up, you can see somebody else get beat up, and not want that to happen to you. So it isn't just there's a lot of tactics that go into that. And unfortunately, those tactics work. And we see that time and time again.
Liz 11:36
You are very smart. And I imagine even at 15 being naive, you're pretty smart back then, too. Did you understand like, how high ranking these people were these adults that were taking advantage of you kids? Did you have any clue who they were what they were capable of at that age?
Alisha Owen 11:55
Not in the beginning? In the beginning, I knew that there was wealth, because that was that was that was really evident that there was a lot of wealth. But no, I didn't know who the exact people were. And I, of course, found out later, but by the time you find out who these people are, it's too late.
Liz 12:19
It is too late by saying it's too late. Like how long does it take you to get to that point like one party and then you're like in or like 10 parties or like what is that? What do you mean by that?
Alisha Owen 12:31
I think it's different for every person. I mean.
Liz 12:40
You know, in some white male they have on you and all that. Well,
Alisha Owen 12:43
and it depends on what happens. Right? But, you know, I would say if you're still around after about a month, you're you're pretty much ensnared.
Liz 12:59
Your trap is fast. Very fast.
Alisha Owen 13:01
Yeah, it's it happens pretty quickly. I mean, it usually is not just the first, the first party is fun time. And isn't this great. But then, you know, you're also if you're drinking and doing drugs, you know, melodic kids would get into a lot of trouble. If their parents found out they went to a party and we're drinking or did drugs. And so it does. I mean, it starts right away with everything is surreptitious, but you know, and kids aren't necessarily going to tell their parents Oh, yeah. Last night, I didn't go rollerskating. I went to this party, and we drink champagne. And we smoked pot. And there was coke. But I didn't do any coke. You know, that? No kids gonna go to their parents and tell them that. And at the time, you're also made to feel like you're adult?
Liz 14:00
Oh, that's true. Yeah, I never even thought about that. So when you realized you were into deep, did you want to tell your parents? No, or did that ever been like, Was that an option in your mind at all?
Alisha Owen 14:12
Um, you know, I I loved my family. And I still I mean, I love my family. And when you realize the power, and the authority, and the threats, the real threats that these people can make, you know, who you can't, the only way you can protect them is by not telling them because Who are you going to call? And seriously, who are you going to
Liz 14:46
and especially like, in your case, it was literally the police that were abusing you. So like, yeah.
Alisha Owen 14:54
And, you know, it's, that doesn't take a genius to figure out that hey, and And I mean, my dad, he was probably, he was cool. But he would have defended his family. And that would not have ended well. So you also, and they know this, they know what kind of power they have. And they really don't care. And they'll tell you what up. So what are you going to? Do? You know? Who you're going to? You know, it's no, I mean, if you look at even, you know, with the Epstein case, what really happened to him? Not a whole lot for a long time. And by that time, it was just so overwhelming. But even then, I mean, look at Maxwell's she's, she could be doing, legitimately, there was enough evidence that she could be doing life in prison. Well, she's gonna get out. So, you know, you understand the mechanisms that are happening, and you realize how insignificant you really are.
Liz 16:14
Um, I know, when a lot of kids are being sexually abused, they like, exhibit other symptoms, you know, like anger and stuff like that. Did you? Have you ever asked your mom if she like, had suspicion that anything was happening to you based on how you acted as a teenager?
Alisha Owen 16:35
Um, they knew. And I mean, they asked me, they didn't know what what was going on, but they knew that they knew that something was wrong. And this kind of goes back to you know, you can't make a person talk. And I knew that if I did, it was going to hurt them. And, I mean, there were times there was one time. When I was I had access to a lot of money back then with Troy. And so I moved out. And I had a nice apartment in Dundee, which is a nice suburb, come on, that it's not a suburb, but it's a nice neighborhood. Like Warren Buffett lived not too far from my apartment. I mean, it was a nice area. And one time my mom came over, and she literally saw plane tickets just laying around, and more than one, and she's like, What is going on here? And you know, I was willful, and I basically told her, don't worry about it selling your business and they knew something was going on. But if you don't tell them, how are they going to possibly figure that out?
Liz 18:04
Right. I mean, she probably just thought you had like a drug dealer boyfriend or something like that. Yeah.
Alisha Owen 18:08
Drug dealer boyfriend. And yeah, that's they really did not like Troy.
Liz 18:18
But, and just for this lesson, Troy was another victim to that is the one who initially invited you.
Alisha Owen 18:27
It was a Boystown guy. And I really would really recommend that, you know, if you want to really understand and this is this is really actually important. One of the biggest reasons why Nick was able to hone in on Epstein the Epstein case so long ago, is because when you look at my case, it's kind of in my case was actually when it was discovered was like 8889 9889 When Nebraska realized they had a problem on their hands. But if you look at what happened to me it's like the playbook. For me this this exact same thing has happened over and over and over again. And it's happening right now with Epstein. I mean, you basically silenced the victims. Silence, you know, silence the victims in
Liz 19:54
and they're being silenced from every angle. They're being silenced by not only the media, but also Oh from the police, they're being silenced from the FBI. They're being silenced from like, everyone that should be breaking the story. The people that they trust that should be protecting them are the ones silencing them. And I think that's like, that's for me what is so upsetting? Especially so you know, when you said like, you wouldn't you wanted to protect your family, so you didn't want to go to them. The ones that didn't have a family and next book, like the boys, the orphans and stuff like that, that, you know, they would go to the priest or their foster parents or something like that, and then get shut down. And then like, the abuse got even worse. That made me so sad for them, because I'm like, these are the people that are supposed to be protecting the weak and innocent. And they literally just, like threw them back to the wolves. And I'm, it just makes me they literally angry.
Alisha Owen 20:51
Yeah, they literally did throw them back to the wolves. And what is so sad right now is even though we know that, you know, because a lot of the the Epstein victims, their names are out there. And as a matter of fact, with Epstein justice, we have one of his victims on our board. The thing that people don't realize is that when the courts decided, okay, we're going to take Epstein's money, and then we're going to distributed among the victims. Do you know what they do? They require every victim to sign a nondisclosure agreement. Why? Yeah, why he's dead.
Liz 21:49
Also, like, why can't they tell their story? Like, what are you hiding? Yeah,
Alisha Owen 21:53
it's to me, and people don't understand that this is this is horrendous. And I just, you know, and people think, Oh, well, they're gonna get a couple of million dollars. Well, you know, right. Right now there's, oh, there, there are 12 gals that are suing the FBI. And actually, that that lawsuit was filed like over six months ago, that are suing the FBI for not protecting them. But according to does that mean that because they've signed this nondisclosure agreement, that they can't say how the FBI just swept everything under the rug, because I mean, the FBI went into his Epstein's townhome and we're talking boxes and boxes of stuff. And the the penalties for child pornography are actually much greater than the penalties for for assault. So why aren't they doing anything with this?
Liz 23:13
It just shows like, corruption goes, that's what makes me really sick because these people are running our country.
Alisha Owen 23:21
And I think we have a right to know.
Liz 23:23
Of course we do. We wouldn't elect them or continue voting for them. If we knew this sick shit that they were doing. It's like it's terrible. Okay, so let's back up. So you got kind of got started and all this stuff when you were 1415. At what point did you end up going to prison?
Alisha Owen 23:49
I went to prison in 1988. How old and that that is it's a long story, but it is tied to all of this. And that's when so I was in prison in Nebraska. And that's when Gary Cara Dory. The the Nebraska Legislature was looking into this because $42 million is missing from this Franklin credit union. There are already some people that are dead. And there are rumors going on. So the Nebraska Legislature decided that they wanted to do an investigation and they did and they hired a an investigator. And he found like 60 Victim witnesses. And I was one of them and he came to me and by this time I had just turned 18 And one of the things that I had decided, was that I had a duty to stop this, I had a duty to make sure that this ended, at least in my sphere. And when Gary showed up, I really thought about that promise that I made to myself because I had promised myself, I was never going to lower. I was never going to suck anybody else into this. And so when Gary showed up, I really was confronted with, okay, what are you going to do? And I told him that I needed to talk to my family. So my family came up, and that's when I told them the whole deal, and told them that hey, I have shocked
Liz 26:08
when you told them.
Alisha Owen 26:12
Yes, and no. I mean, it was yes, it was shocking. But no, now it all made sense. If that makes, if that makes sense. I mean, they really, it's kind of like the pieces fell into place. So no, I don't think that they were shocked. They were surprised. But they understood. And I was at that point that because I knew that this was going to be a long road that I would give my my family the opportunity to decide what they wanted me to do. Because they knew it'd be dangerous, you know, I told him this is gonna be dangerous.
Liz 26:59
Scary. Yes. Absolutely. Why? Why did you trust him over others are had any anyone else even approached you about it at that point?
Alisha Owen 27:13
I tested him. Well, I gave him I gave him like two names. Troy and Danny sang. And I knew that Troy and Danny were not going to be easy to find. So if he could find Troy and Danny then that told me at least he was somewhat of a decent investigator. And I also was gonna see what he did with just a little bit of information. And it really was, you know, you talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? And Gary cut? He was, he was a good, decent man.
Liz 28:05
He seemed like it from Nick's very thorough description of him in the book. And he seemed like he was like, relentless, like, like he really wanted to figure it out and get just some justice for all of you all. Yeah,
Alisha Owen 28:17
he was not going to quit. He was absolutely not going to quit. And we've we've asked, we became good friends, and we spent and he was, he was very sincere.
Liz 28:33
Can you tell what happened to Gary? Excuse me? Can you tell the listeners what happened to Gary?
Alisha Owen 28:41
Gary was there was a black male photographer that Gary had found out his whereabouts and contacted and Gary was gray was also a pilot. And he had a small like, I think Piper Cessna type plane. And he was going to go to Chicago to get photographs. That basically were would be concrete proof that what we were saying was true. And that was is intent with that, but also I don't know if it was a subterfuge or what but he was also taking his son Andrew to see a baseball game because Andrew was a huge baseball fan. And so they flew up there for purposes of the baseball game. And I think on the side Gary was getting these pictures and On the flight home, their plane exploded. And they were killed. And everything disappeared
and he was he and his his I believe eight year old son Andrew were killed. I think for because him Gary was followed. And I mean, this is not paranoia, there's actually FBI reports that you can get about him being followed. And because the FBI was investigating the investigator and so I think for outward appearances, it's not like he was gonna say, Hey, I'm gonna fly up to Chicago and, you know, get blackmail pictures that were used for this thing from this photographer. He said that he was going to take his son to a baseball game in Chicago, and get these pictures well on the he and his son were flying home and they're playing was blown up in midair. And Gary and his Gary and Andrew, his young son were killed, and everything disappeared. The farmers say that. And Sandy, Cara Dory has his widow, the FBI showed up like really fast. And they took everything and they pretty much tried to say that Gary must have fallen asleep at the in the cockpit, which how you fall asleep. 13 minutes after you take off is beyond me. But there's a lot of suspect things about Gary's death. But there's been I believe, with my case, I believe that there were 19 people that died under quote unquote, similar mysterious circumstances.
Liz 32:33
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever known one person that's died under mysterious circumstances like that my whole life. So it just seems like a lot of people were being killed. Yes. Shut down this whole story.
Alisha Owen 32:47
Yeah, I would, I would really encourage people to if you really want to know, like the details, and because there's just no way that I could go over everything in in one interview. I really would encourage, if you want to know what I believe to be the genesis of Epstein is to read Nick's book. It, everything is triple cooperated. It's all there. In black and white, and you can see it it's not so conspiracy theory. Nick actually spent a couple of years going through transcripts and reports and everything. He did a very good job of documenting everything
Liz 33:41
he did. So tell us about the perjury trial. Just briefly. I know you can't really tell about give like an overview of it.
Alisha Owen 33:54
Nebraska judiciary called a grand jury. And it was basically it was it was a setup. I mean, it was just because it a grand jury. Both sides are not, you know, represented. A grand jury has a prosecutor and a prosecutor picks and chooses everything that they want this jury to see. So if if they want you to think that the sky is purple, then they're only going to have people come in and say the sky is purple. And I was indicted. They basically called me a liar. They called me a liar. And they indicted one guy on a misdemeanor pandering who was a prolific pedophile and called me a liar and then called another victim a liar. Are and well, that grand jury was going on. That's when Gary died and and right after Gary died, that's when they indicted me. And I had probably the longest criminal, most expensive trial in the state of Nebraska at that time. Because they called me a liar. And they had basically told me what they didn't basically, they told me that if I would recant, and change my story, that everything would just go away. And that was not an option. That was not an option. And that's
Liz 35:42
what they did to all the other victims to like Troy and Danny, they were going to tell the truth, and then FBI or whoever would come in and just talk them out of it or give them some different story to tell. Yes, to make it go away,
Alisha Owen 35:55
right to make it go away. And like with Troy, it's very interesting to note that Troy's brother mysteriously died, playing Russian roulette. In September, and my brother, and then Troy turned, he recanted. And then in November that happened, I think September, and then in November, my brother also mysteriously died under circumstances, but I fought it. And it was really just my attorney, Henry Rosenthal, and myself against the FBI, the Department of Justice, and Nebraska State Patrol, but the truth is the truth and I wasn't, I wasn't. By by that time, you know, they killed Gary that killed my brother, they killed Shawn.
Liz 37:06
How were you able to tell the truth, I feel like a normal person like after going through what you had been through. And under all the stress of being in prison, you were in solitary confinement, you were like going being drug through the mud, they were totally trying to ruin your name and your credibility, like what gave you the strength to continue to tell the truth or all of that?
Alisha Owen 37:31
Because right, is right. And I think by that time, I think I had done about two years in solitary confinement. So really, there wasn't much more than they could do to me than kill me.
And I decided that no matter what that I was going to do the right thing. And nothing else really mattered. It mattered to me that said I needed to be able to live with myself.
Liz 38:27
When we first spoke, I asked you, you know, that saying the truth will set you free? It's in the Bible. Yeah. I asked you what that meant to you. And the reason why I wanted to know is because you told the truth. And he were not set free in the sense that I think of in my mind, you were actually put back in prison. What is what are those words mean to you? And when you told the truth, did you understand what the consequences were going to be?
Alisha Owen 39:02
I didn't know exactly what they were going to be. But I knew that they were what they would probably be. And you know what, I love that question. I was really surprised when you asked me that because no one had ever asked me that before. And for me, it really was the truth will set you free and from for me, it was not a
it wasn't necessarily a physical freedom. But and I when I was sentenced, I told the judge the story. There was one time with I mean, the FBI told me that I would be an old woman if I didn't change my story. I would be an old woman before I got on and by this time, I mean, I'd been locked in a room by myself for at least 18 months. And that's rough on a person. I mean, that is really rough. And I when I got back to myself, you know, they have that polished piece of stainless steel that serves as a mirror and I looked into the mirror and that's when it hit me. I can get up every morning and I can look at myself in a mirror and know that I did the right thing. And that's what's important. Because if you can't get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror, and know you did the right thing, then you're in a prison that no man has a key you'll never get out.
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Liz 0:00
I can't help but compare what you say about this to how Troy and Danny were. And it seems like even after they, you know, were let off because they recanted their stories. It seems like they were tormented, like the rest of their lives, you know, they've struggled with drugs and all sorts of things. And I feel like they could not sleep with themselves at night based on Nick's account.
Alisha Owen 0:22
Yeah. And that's true. That is true. That is that is true, then.
When you have the ability to just stand up and say, to make a change, and you don't do that, I don't understand how someone could not feel guilty because they know what's going on. And it's really hard to you know, you can't unknow something, if you know something is going on. I just don't understand how, for me, I had to make the decision that I wanted to be able to live with myself. And there was just no way that I could allow all of that hurt and death and destruction. When and as long as I could still stand up and tell you know, and tell the truth, then they didn't When
Liz 1:42
did your parents want you to recant your story? Or were they supportive of you?
Alisha Owen 1:46
Oh, they were absolutely supportive. I mean, the FBI even offered the money to try and get me to change my mind. And your
Liz 1:55
parents money. Hmm. The FBI offered your parents money.
Alisha Owen 2:00
Yeah. They offered? My mom testified to that. Yeah. They offered him money. And my parents were like, No, you know, and I am so glad. And that I that I took a stand. I mean, it's sometimes it's hard to talk about. But so worth it. Because you have to be able to you have to be able to stand your ground. That's important. Because, you know, Alexander Hamilton once said, If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for everything. And I think that it is so important that you know where you stand? And if you don't have that, then what do you what what do you have?
Liz 3:14
Yeah. So one of the things you told me that is, you want people to know, is that you have to draw a line in the sand and you have to teach your kids. What do you mean by that?
Alisha Owen 3:27
That is probably, like I said, I had great parents, I my parents, I probably would have killed me. Because I was I was a handful. But my parents were very
they were they were developing, they really took it seriously developing their kids as whole moral adults and drawing a line in the sand is so important when, you know when I was young, and this is like in the 70s. I don't know. It's probably not your era, but there was a big, like mini series about the Holocaust. And I remember we were watching that. And our church also supported some elderly Holocaust survivors. And so my parents made sure that that we understood what the culture was like and how people because we didn't understand, you know, how could this happen that people were just taken away and nobody said anything, nobody stood up. And through different Bible stories, my folks made sure that we understood Would that you know, doing something wrong, quote unquote sin isn't just doing something, it can be not doing something. And sometimes not doing something is more wrong than doing something? And that you're responsible for what you do, and you're responsible for what you don't do. And they instilled that responsibility. Because if you don't instill that in your children, how will they ever really know? You know, it's we talked, we talked once in you hadn't mentioned that you have been touched are the Proverbs that train a child in the way that they should go, and they won't depart from that path. And there's a lot of different versions of that. But the thing that I think is really important, when my mother would, would talk to us about this instruction, she always used the word train. And when you think train, and this is what I think is really important for parents to know. When you look at different things, really look at the meaning of the word and the word that she used. But if you train your child, and when you train for something, it's not just, you tell them something, you train them, it is it is a multiple, repetitive, you know, experience. And, um, it's something that you consciously do. And I think that is probably the number one thing that allowed me to be able to take a stand and not fold is I had been trained to know what my boundaries were, as far as what would I absolutely wear? Where do I draw the line, and, you know, drawing the line, that concept goes back 1000s of years. And in the United States, the most famous one is at the Alamo, where the I think it's a colonel with his sword draws a line and says, Hey, you know, this is the last stand. And if you're with me, step over this line, draw that line in the sand. And you really have to know, and be prepared to say, Okay, this is where I will go no further, or Once I pass this, this is where this is where I stand. And I'm not sure that we are preparing our children or training our children to know what are boundaries? And not only that, how do we solidify those boundaries? What what boundaries, do we are not allowed to ever be crossed? And if those boundaries are crossed, what are we going to do about it? And I think that if we
Liz 8:40
question like a parenting question, yeah.
Alisha Owen 8:44
And I really think, can you? I'm sorry.
Liz 8:48
No, I was gonna say can you give me an example this I'm like, Mom thinking through this with my kids. Give me an example of what you mean. Like, here is a specific boundary. And once you cross it, if you do cross it, and you shouldn't have them what do you do about it? Can you think of something like that? But like, me, I'm
Alisha Owen 9:08
just, I mean, this this is probably this could be universal example. My dad was a big guy, and grew up in a really tough neighborhood and he hated bullies. My dad was one of those guys that you know, when he was growing up, because he was a big muscular guy, you know, people didn't. And, you know, we're talking really poor, poor neighborhood. But he really hated to see bullies people picking on a little guy and my dad I made it a point that if, if he was around, there were no bullies. And they instilled in us that, and it goes back to that omission versus commission. That if you are present, and there is like somebody with you, and you don't even have to know them. But if you see a bully, somebody beating up or picking on someone that's weaker, younger, not as strong, whatever, if you see that going on and you don't do anything, then you are even worse than that bully, because that bully is probably an idiot, or has been bullied themselves, but you know, better. And if you don't, then you are just as bad or maybe even worse than the bully because you know better. And you are bringing shame upon yourself. You are bringing shame upon your family, and you are bringing shame upon your God. Because God doesn't like bullies either. And I'm not kidding. I mean, we're I remember, you know, we're talking four and five years old, you know, when you're getting ready to go to school, that was a big thing about that. Bullies are not allowed in our, in our environment. And if you nip the bully in the bud, it doesn't get any worse. And so that's one example that you know, you, you have to know in advance that these things are just not allowed. Or if you do if you do cross the line there's really only one way to make it right. And that is to you know, one of my mom's prayers for her kids. And believe me, we weren't too thrilled about this was there is a proverb, make sure your sins will find you out. And my mother would tell us now I want you guys to know that I'm going to pray that if you do anything wrong, that you don't get away with it. Because I, people that get away with doing wrong things, you can see how that snowballs. And my mom flat out told us that she would pray every day that if her children did something wrong, that they would be found out and it could be addressed and nipped in the bud. And I really think that as a parent
we should pray for our children in that in that aspect. But I think it's Yeah, I think I was my parents had a really interesting way of disciplining because I was so headstrong that spankings didn't really matter and care, whatever. But what really got to me was I didn't want to hurt people. I didn't want to disappoint. There was one time where I didn't know we were at my grandmother's in, I took a candy bar. And I was actually the candy bars were for us. But I took one and then I was asked, Did you take candy bar, and I lied. And when we got home, and they knew I lied. And when we got I was like six or seven. My mom sat me down. And she made me read this Bible verse. Line lips are an abomination to the Lord. And at that time, I didn't even know what the word abomination meant. But she explained it to me that an abomination is just so horrible, that it just can't even be born. It's it's, it's, it's horrible. And that if you lie, you're actually hurting God and you're hurting your parents and you're hurting the people that you love. And those kinds of those kinds of lessons really resonated with me and some people might think that a six or seven year old, that's, that's too big of a concept. But I really believe that children rise to the level of expectation. And you can explain things to your kids, and they'll understand. And you can explain about boundaries, and you can explain about bullying. And I really think that the whole bully, and the responsibility that you have to your fellow man really needs to be addressed at the time that they start school, because that's really where it starts, that's when your child is first going to be in a situation. And even if your child isn't bullied, they're going to probably see it happen. And if for some reason you have a child that participates in that, then they need to understand the ramifications of that also, and what that does to you as a person. So I really think that it's important that you, you're building a foundation, and when we talk about lines in the sand and boundaries, that those are real things, and that it's not just one talk, or maybe two talks, but it is something that is your, your training your child. You're You're during, and really that isn't that what you're doing as a parent. You're training them for adulthood, you're training them to become a decent moral human being. And you're training another parent so that they'll race good human beings
Liz 17:00
I am very what I have been very authoritarian with my kids. Like there's lots of spankings. And you know, I try to tell them like if you do this, and you disobeyed and this is what the consequences gonna be. And I've been very convicted of that. Not that I'm gonna quit spanking because I'm not because my kids are. They need spankings. But right now they do. But um, I've been convicted on like, the training piece. Because especially since talking to you about the line in the sand, I'm like, How do I teach them about like lines in the sand, especially being young like they are? And I'm like, Well, I guess the best way to learn is from me. So like, if I'm drawing lines in the sand, they will see me doing that. And they will understand. Okay, if if I drew a line in the sand, and I crossed that line? Did I rectify it? Or did I just like, brush it under the rug and act like it didn't happen and deal with the ramifications later? Or did I draw a line in the sand and I like stuck to it. And so that's really, it puts training in a whole new light, like the training falls on not me forcing them into drawing lines in the sand, but then meet them watching me live my life. And so I feel like with when I wanted to talk to you, in the beginning, I wanted you to tell me like all these ways to protect my kids from these pedophiles and predators, and I thought you were gonna be like, Liz, don't let them go to parks. And don't do this. And don't do that. And like, it's all what I wanted you to tell me was wrong. Because I think that God is teaching me I can't protect my kids from everything. Bad stuff is going to happen to them in their lives. But I can train them how to think for themselves, and how to hopefully defend themselves better and stand up for themselves and defend people that are weaker than them that they need to stand up for. And I think that, um, one thing that I really, really, really admire about your parents is that they even once you came to them and told them everything that happened, I'm sure they had a lot of guilt on their end, like what if we had like, dug into this more or whatever, they probably had tons of guilt, but that they stood behind you. And they said, Okay, well now that this bad thing has happened. You gotta like do the next right thing going forward. We can't change what happened in the past but we can you know, control what's happening right now and how we're going to handle it and your parents like they supported you in the hard things like you telling the truth. You knew that was gonna land you back in prison and away from your family and away from your daughter. And you knew how terrible that was going to be but they supported you and said we want you to do that. right thing. And so I think that that's like a huge testament to them, teaching you, your there's going to be times in life when you cross the line, because we're all sinners. And we all do. And what was unfortunate in your situation is that like, you may have crossed one little line by going to that party and drinking and smoking weed or whatever. But then these adults took advantage you and they really, really did horrendous things to you that sickened me to no end. But through that, they realized we don't have control, God has control. And what we're going to do is the next right thing and this situation that we're in right now. And so for me, it's like, God's teaching me, you don't have the control. You can't say, Don't go to that park. Don't do this. Don't hang out with those people. But you can train them. Here's where the lines are. You have to decide if you're going to cross it or not. And you've got it. If you do cross it, then you got to rectify it. And so I very, very much admire your parents. But I also Alicia, I really admire you because you been through hell. There's just no, no way to mince those words, you've been through hell. And you didn't cower down, you're not like some shell of a human being you're very strong person, and you're very convicted. And I feel like the line in the sand another line in the sand for you right now is like where you're at in your life with what's going on with Epstein. And I'm sure it would be much easier for you just to go about your life and live it you know, you've got a good job, you got a good husband, you're, well, relatively normal now considering what happened to you. You know what I mean? Yeah. But instead, you're taking this on, you've joined Epstein justice, and you're like, I can't watch these bullies, these sick people hurt these women that I know how bad it is. And so you're actually doing something about it. And I'm sure that that's opened up your old scars and stuff, but I feel like you are using what, you know, Satan meant for terrible things in your life. And you've actually turned it into good and I don't know, how that can be done without God. And so I really respect that you're doing something about it now.
Alisha Owen 22:20
Oh, thank you. And I think it's, you know, one of an I don't, I am not a religious person. I am a spiritual person. And, you know, I was raised as a spiritual person. And I was raised that it's okay to ask questions, and it's okay. It sometimes it's okay to struggle, you know, it's, it's okay to recognize what reality is. And, but one of the things that, even before drawing lines from the, I'm my first memories that my parents did, is my parents love me. But they always made sure that I knew that there was one other person that loved me more than even they could. And that was God. And that as much as I loved my father, God loves me even more, because God is perfect. And that no matter what, even when, even if my parents did fail me, there was one person that loved me the most. That would never fail me, and never leave me. And that would always be there forever. And that there's a deal. And there's, there's always, you know, there's most things there is a contract, you know, if if you behave, you're going to get a treat at 10 o'clock, your snack. Kids understand that. And because God loves me, he is never going to forsake me. But when I have an agreement with God, God, God follows his word. And he says, All things work together for good for those that love God. So in order for me to get those blessings and that strength, I have to love God back. It's a two way street. And that also, lets you know, we need to remember that that extra A part of that, that contract, because we have to love God back. And as long as you love God back and you trust God, and you know that he loves you beyond your entire capability of even understanding love. And you part of that training, because you if you train a child that hey, I love you, and your dad loves you and your grandma loves you, your whole family loves you. But there is one other person that loves you even more than those people do. Because believe me when I was in solitary confinement i only had one other person in there with me, and I know it kind of sounds a little crazy. But when you're locked in a box, because it's not a very big room, it's a cell. Yeah, I got to know myself really well. And I got to know God pretty good. And that all goes back to training. And I think that, you know, it's not easy whoever said easy, you know, training studies he asked any Olympian or price fighter or soldier, you have to train and I definitely understand the because the you know, the spankings. I mean, I was horrible. There was one time I story, my folks used to that, and I don't necessarily remember it. But I mean, I must have been like four or five. And I was gonna get a spanking. And my dad, you know, was doing the this is gonna hurt me more than it hurts you. And I was like, Yeah, but, but you feel like a big band beaten up on a four year old. I mean, I was terrible. And I got my fair share of spankings. But also my parents did not want to break my spirit. They they recognize and as a parent, you understand your child's spirit. And you really need to connect with their spirit and make sure that their spirit connects with God, because that was one thing that I knew no matter what I know how my story ends, I have a happy ending. And I know this doesn't matter what happens in between, I know how my story ends, and it's a happy ending. And besides that, when you're like best friends with the Supreme Creator of the universe, it's okay to stand up. You know, who's got your back. And there may be times that it really sucks, but you know, who's got your back. And it's important that every child I wish, I really wish that every single person got to have the relationship with God that I have it make life a lot easier.
So yeah, but I understand that as parents, and that is one of the things that because when you first asked me, I knew that you were kind of wanting okay, you know, like a cheat sheet, a cheat sheet list, and that it isn't places that you go or I mean, it can be, but predators are sneaky. Yeah. And if they see any kind of, of Avenue, they take it, I mean, that's why they're predators. So if we raise our children to be warriors, it's a lot harder for predators to prey on him. And by warriors, you know, I don't mean fighters, but a warrior is also a protector. And you know, it's, it's that whole concept. And really, that's what I think is a big part of of my survival. And I really for for a long time, during my trial and everything's, it was always Oh, she's lying, and she made this up because she wants to book and movie deals. and attention, etc, etc. I never gave any interviews. And it took me about 20 years to understand it because I was more intent on proving them wrong. But What idiot thinks that you want to relive the worst moments of your life? And obviously, you know, there were no book or movie deals or anything like that I've received no money, nothing. And it took me about 20 years. And then I finally realized, and this is part of that whole non disclosure that I have a serious problem with. Nick, it asked me how I actually got involved. Nick had asked me, this was like, in 2020 2021, when during Maxwell's trial, Nick had said, Alicia, we're doing a protests, you know, would you come and speak. And I have never spoken before. And I was pretty nervous, and said, okay, and I, because I really felt after watching that interview, on Good Morning America, or whatever, I really felt that I understood exactly what was going on. And I really felt for that girl, because I understood the the, the weight of that kind of blackmail, and that kind of keeping those secrets, and how detrimental it can be. And I said, Okay, I have to do this. And it was insane. The the feedback that I got, and I, because I really didn't see how me telling my story could help others.
But after I spoke, the outpouring that I got, and the feedback, and the number of people that were able to start their own journey of healing became evident. And that's when I realized that you know, when you know something is going on, we go back to the bullies, when you know, something is going on, and yet you do nothing.
That to me, is unconscionable.
I don't even understand how, and if you're, if you're talking about children, and you're an adult. How I don't even understand that. And I don't know. I mean, I've I've never had a job that is worth more than my conscience. Because the way I've always looked at it, you know, when you get a job, you're looking for one when you found that one? And what, what is more valuable than than your ability to be at peace with yourself? And I suppose that if you're a person that you don't care about peace with yourself, and you have no conscience, well, then I think that's a whole nother issue.
Liz 33:59
So when did Nick come up with x injustice? Or did you or when did you? And
Alisha Owen 34:06
Nick did it Nick came up with Epstein because we kicked her in a couple of different things like you know, we had survivors. And some of the names were taken. And so with Epstein justice it really kind of evolved. It took a little bit of what it took a couple of months for it to evolve to Epstein justice. But what we really decided was, what needs to be done and what was not done. In my case. A truth and reconciliation commission of what we need is for our a Truth and Reconciliation Commission can only be called by three people. The Republican leader, the Democratic leader, or the President of the United States, those are three people that that can call for this commission. Now we as voters, and as people can put pressure on our lawmakers to call for this. But it needs to be an independent because I am sick and tired of supposedly trusting people to investigate themselves. Buy that anymore. And it's time that we grew up. And we said, you know, we don't buy it either. And so it needs to be a independent commission, that will. And the reason why we want a Truth and Reconciliation Commission is they have other powers in different processes that would allow an independent investigation of the Department of Justice, the FBI, and different things that we know have happened. Because there's just nothing, nothing being done. It's all being swept underneath the carpet. And not only that do you want is how much money that people are making office? This is insane. When they say, Oh, well, we have this fund for the victims. Well, the real people that are making the money are the attorneys. And the attorneys are the ones that are telling them no, you gotta sign the nondisclosure. And when I look at this, I think to myself you know, if I had ever way back when, you know, 2530 years ago, if I would have ever signed any agreement, that said, I could never talk about this, at that time, I would not have known what I was giving up. I would not have known because I really think that the final stage of healing, is being able to share is being able to share the final stage of, of truth healing, and is being able to talk about it and being able to share and grow and help others. Because when you realize that, that the pain that you went through, can help others heal from their pain, or even possibly help others not go through that pain. That in itself promotes your own growth. And I cannot imagine
what harm I would have done to myself, if I would have accepted an agreement like that years ago because I know that one of the reasons why they called me a liar. And they said oh book or movie deals and just you're trying to get attention was to keep me quiet. Right. And having a voice is really important.
Liz 39:03
I agree. So what are your goals with Epstein justice right now? Um, I know the truth and reconciliation is the primary goal, but what's it going to take to get there?
Alisha Owen 39:14
Um, we are going to need right now. If you go to our website, at Epstein justice.com There is we have a couple of things going on. There is an applet that you can go and sign a petition right now I think we're close to like 40 or 50,000 that we want to take to Congress. But there's also a you can put in your name, your email address and like your zip code and it will automatically insert for you. Who hoo your your house of representatives in your congress Senate. And it will send them a letter saying that you support a truth and Reconciliation Commission, it sends it directly to the legislative representatives.
Liz 40:07
I did that and it took like, a minute, yes,
Alisha Owen 40:10
it literally is typing your name and we don't sell your information. The next thing that we're going to do because we are, as a matter of fact, one of the, one of our biggest things is, there's been at least like three or four times where Nick has been slated to be on a national, either podcast or television show. And then as soon as they find out, like we're talking like an hour before air or before filming, or half an hour, as soon as they find out that, Nick, we're not partisan, I don't care if you're Republican, I don't care if you're Democrat, if you're involved in this, let the chips fall where they may, because you don't get to prey on our children and get away with it. And you don't get to cover it up and allow those predators to keep going. It's nonpartisan, I think that that's one thing that we as people as a society should be able to come together on that you don't get to hurt our kids and get away with it. And a lot of politicians and media want to treat this as a political issue. preying on our children is not a political thing. It is an evil thing. And we have to stand up and say no, you don't get to twist or turn this. We don't care who you are, if you prey on children, prey on our on our most vulnerable excuse me, or if you protect people that do that then when we want to know who you are, and you're going to be held accountable. So I would say those are two immediate things that you can do. And also starting next month, March. We are going to be doing a monthly newsletter because we really do need to get the word out on what is really going on with this. That because believe me, there are things that are being covered up and we need to for going to have an investigation. There's evidence that needs to be preserved, like all of those boxes and boxes and DVDs that they took out of Epstein's brownstone that needs to be preserved that can't just mysteriously go missing. So we need our media. We need to call our media and say look, this is not a political story. This is not a salacious story. We need real meaningful reporting. When are they going to really start asking the questions because with Mexico we know with Mexico we basically have a pimp with no Jon's Yeah, I mean when you boil it down to it, that's what she was. She was a procure she was a pimp. How do you have a pimp was no John's with no other predators. And like I said, I don't care who you are, let the chips fall where they may. If you were a part of it. You have deserved to be held accountable. Because if they're not it's gonna keep going on.
Liz 44:11
Yeah, what was interesting to me as Nick made the point, he was like, it's literally like, Epstein was copy and paste of the Franklin scandal. And I'm like, so there's gonna be another copy and paste of this because they like control these people with these blackmail rings. So unless something is done to stop it, another one's just gonna pop up somewhere else. It's not like just because Epstein's not here anymore means it's done.
Alisha Owen 44:34
Absolutely. And it's not just the United States. One of the things that it really made my heart happy to see and let me finish before the part that made my heart happy. I believe it was. Belgium had something similar happen. Over a million Unit, Belgians took to the streets in protest, and stood up as one and said, our government does not get to aid and abet child predators. And I, that really made my heart happy. And I know that we are in the process of getting together a rally that I would love to see. And it doesn't have to be in one single place, but in your community, where we set aside a day that we have a nation wide line in the sand, where we as a people come together and say no more, and we stand up and make our voices heard. That would be that is something that I think we need to do so that people understand. Not on our watch. We're done. Not on our watch.
Liz 46:20
Can people donate to Epstein justice? I assume what you need is coverage and money right now?
Alisha Owen 46:26
Yes, absolutely. Um, and we are a nonprofit. So it's not it's tax deductible. And getting a rally like this setup, and getting certain mechanisms in place, a lot of it we've done with our own money in our own time, and energies. But yes, there is a donate button that's on our website. So if you feel the need to help us monetarily, that would be great. Sign up for our newsletter, and you'll get one next starting next month. It's a free newsletter when you get that, please share it. And then the nice thing about this newsletter, just so you know, the thing that really makes me excited about this newsletter is, a lot of times when people start researching this, they wind up going down a rabbit hole. And I did write it's you know, and then it's like, okay, it's, well, this person says this, this person says this, the thing about the newsletter that I am personally excited about is this newsletter is going to have links. If we say something, you're gonna be able to click on a link and see the black and white proof. I am. I think that people need to know the reality and see the proof. It's not just, you know, somebody said this, or this is what I heard. I want people to be able to see the proof the evidence. And I think that armed with actual evidence allows people to stand boldly and say, Nope, I saw that. There was you know, these are the flight logs. This is what happened in this court case. We know that this happened. I mean, it's the newsletter is going to be a definite resource of facts. And I think that that's really one of the things that we need is to be able to show facts. Now unfortunately, most predators don't give out receipts. But there is a paper trail.
Liz 48:50
Yeah. I think the facts are really helpful because the media and the powers that be that have been involved in this, which, by the way, are Republicans and Democrats they have done a really good job of labeling this as just like one big conspiracy theory. And it's not and I think that's been proven now because all the Epstein stuff that's come out. But what's crazy is I think people still think that it is and I'm like, as the media push so much propaganda that and silence these victims and ran their names through the mud so bad that we just were like pretending this didn't happen. Because once you know you can't like unknown it and then if you're a parent, and you don't do anything, it's like you're saying about just like you're worse than the bully. You know? It's bad.
Alisha Owen 49:49
Yeah, I agree. I think that and right now what's what's continuing, like right now this This drives me nuts this Epstein victims fun that was created with his with Epstein's money. The lawyer set out boundaries. If you are under the age, if you were under the age of I think it was like 14, then you don't qualify. Well, we already know that for one of his birthdays, he was given 13 year old, it was either like twins or triplets. And it's because they're trying to sanitize the absolute depravity, depravity. These weren't like just 16 1718 year old women. Because it goes a lot deeper than this. But the only ones that they want on the record, are the ones that are a little bit older. So it's still going on. And it's just, to me, it's unconscionable that it's being swept under the rug. And the other thing is, and I understand that there are politicians that, but there's got to be some clean ones out there. They can't all be dirty.
Liz 51:19
I hope not, you know,
Alisha Owen 51:21
out of out of 500 some odd people will at least one of them take a stand, please. Yeah.
And I guess we're the only people that can you know, if there were the only people that can force the issue, because ultimately, we're the ones with the power.
Liz 51:50
Yeah, the people needed to make a lot of noise.
Alisha Owen 51:57
So that's that that right now is my goal. And I this is an organization that you we need to be very clear in our in our specific, you know, goals. But there are things that I have plans for the future that I'm really excited about. But I think this needs to come first, that anything else that's going to come later, it needs to come after this comes out. And after we have. And that's the other thing people need to understand. We're asking for truth, and reconciliation. Because one of the reasons why this is so problematic, and that it actually affects every single one of us. Our Justice Department, the FBI, there are people that are actively covering this up. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, these departments have some severe credibility issues right now, along with our media. You know, people are not trusting our media. And they're not trusting the FBI. And they're not trusting that the Department of Justice is going to behave fairly. And part of this reconciliation is like when when we talked earlier about when you do cross that line, how do you get back? Well, we have to reconcile that.
And that's important. You have to have a reconciliation, so that we can trust our elected officials so that we can trust our law enforcement so we can trust our politicians and our media. And we need to start somewhere. Why not start with the people that need the most kids?
Liz 54:21
I agree, Alicia, thank you so so much for taking the time to do this. I am. Like I said before, I really admire you. I admire your parents. I feel for all the victims that have been through this and I want justice for them. And I also like you said I I haven't been through this, but I want to prevent this for future kids, if possible. And I think that it's important for people to get involved and do what they can and make some noise and yeah, it's time for truth and reconciliation. So If people want to do this, they need to go to Epstein. Justice is it.com or.org.com.com,
Alisha Owen 55:09
Epstein justice.com. And seriously, check out our website. We have a board of directors, we have a team, and really good people. And take a look at our website. We're also on Facebook, like our facebook page. And you know, Liz, thank you so much. I haven't done anything. Yeah,
Liz 55:33
I'm just glad that you were willing to talk about it, because I know it's not fun to talk about it at all.
Alisha Owen 55:43
Well, as long as we can do something about it, it's worth it. I agree. So thank you for everyone having us and see feel if you want to go to our website and you have any questions or want to help, um, feel free to contact us there's a Contact Us. And if you have any ideas or like I said, if you want to support us, please give us a shout. We really appreciate it. And thank you.
Liz 56:18
Thank you, Alicia. I'm going to link all this stuff on the podcast show notes and I'll have it on my social media as well. So you can check it out on my website too at Liz durham.com or on Instagram. Liz Durham, TN. Thank you, Alicia. Thank you to you guys next time.
Alisha Owen 56:35
Sounds great. Thank you.
Liz 56:36
Hang on. Okay,